Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

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mjrak
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by mjrak »

I ran into an interesting problem with the ratings as I was testing for my league's move. I had Adam Oates on the Philadelphia Flyers. For seasons 1-6 that I tested he had a 64 sc rating vs. a 94 PA rating. In those seasons he scored between a range of 40-52 goals. After season 6 I was determined to lower his goals totals, so I dropped his SC rating to 1, with his PA rating remaining a 94. Over the next 6 seasons simmed he scored between 35-46 goals.

As I tried to figure out how this was possible I started to look into the % of team goals the first line was responsible for. Through 12 seasons, all 22 teams in my league had their first line score between 50-52% of all team goals. I could not find any other reason why Oates would score so many goals with a 1 sc rating.

If this is indeed how the sim runs, with the first unit scoring in that range, it seems to explain to me MOST of the complaints regarding the randomness in the simming. Most teams have similar first units, the good teams are good because they have better 2-4 lines.

Further, the league leaders are way out of whack for this same reason. In all 12 seasons we had between 10-18 50+ goal scorers and 20-40 100+ pt men. The league leaders were between 140-160 points. That is simply too high. Before you tell me I have the goals slider too high, the team goals for and against are at the same levels I currently run in FHL (and exactly where I want them for the league as well, between 250-320 goals for). Realistically, the current NHL or even the high scoring NHL of the 80s did not see that many 50 goal scorers and 100 pt men (and my goals for totals are lower then they were in the 80s.)

I am sure you do not want to tell us if this is indeed how the sim is built, but Simon could this be the root of most of the complaints you have received about the version? If this is one of the root problems, isn't this something that can be fixed?
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by QSHL »

I didn't move my sliders from FHL to STHS (or barely) and we went from a multiple 100-point getters to none in 5 complete V1 seasons.


Like Simon once told me : use your sliders and test!


If you guys just follow other leagues' receipe, or if you remain in your "good ol' routine", you MUST expect some differences.
mjrak
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by mjrak »

My sliders were tested and I found the appropriate mix to what I was looking for with regards to team goals for, so I'm not exactly sure what your point is? How does that have anything to do with a 1 sc rating guy scoring 35-45 goals a season or the first unit of every team scoring 50-52% of total team goals?
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gab_3020
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by gab_3020 »

mjrak wrote:My sliders were tested and I found the appropriate mix to what I was looking for with regards to team goals for, so I'm not exactly sure what your point is? How does that have anything to do with a 1 sc rating guy scoring 35-45 goals a season or the first unit of every team scoring 50-52% of total team goals?
As for the Adam Oates thing... I don't know, but it surely seems that something is out of whack with your ratings or your sliders.

Seemingly, your sliders seem correct if you tell me your global stats are roughly the same as the NHL.

I'd suggest looking into your DF rating and doing a better formula... CK also might be used. The SC is only one contributing factor to it.

Compare 1st liners vs 2nd and 3rd liners...

Also, I'd suggest you look into who's playinog the PP's and everything else... That might have a lot to do with it.

THere is my top 2 lines production (points in brackets):

Ovechkin (39) Plekanec (27) Heatley (21)
Burrows (18) Laich (13) Kozlov (8)

I alternate Laich and Kozlov (especially him as I have a good depth of scoring 2nd line capable RWers) with Weight and Brunette or others here and there which might explain the lower scoring

Except for the exagerrated Ovechkin Point which is due to higher scoring in my league, everything seems in proportion... then again, Ovechkin does account for a lot of point for the Caps, and they have a lot of good offensive players

50% is not that bad to my eyes...
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by ynohtna »

gab_3020 wrote:THere is my top 2 lines production (points in brackets):

Ovechkin (39) Plekanec (27) Heatley (21)
Burrows (18) Laich (13) Kozlov (8)

I alternate Laich and Kozlov (especially him as I have a good depth of scoring 2nd line capable RWers) with Weight and Brunette or others here and there which might explain the lower scoring

Except for the exagerrated Ovechkin Point which is due to higher scoring in my league, everything seems in proportion... then again, Ovechkin does account for a lot of point for the Caps, and they have a lot of good offensive players

50% is not that bad to my eyes...
What would be good to see is if you give Ovechkin an SC of 1, does he still get 39 points at the same point in the season?
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by SimonT »

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sly
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by sly »

Bon ma ligue les DG sont en train de capoté et moi aussi a cause de tout ca de la version 2 qui semble favorisé les clubs moins bien nantis etc....la si ca change pas je vais perdre 4-5 DG et ca minteresse vraiment pas deja dans trouver des bon cest pas facile ....donc ma question est-ce que lont peu facilement passé de la version 2 et retomber avec la version 1 sans probleme et ce meme si ont a genre 20 a 30 parties de simulé de la saison ?

Si ca fonctionne sans trop de probleme quelle est la procedure a suivre svp pour pas toute faire fouarrer la ligue

merci de vos réponses
Merci a la prochaine
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by Foo »

Honnêtement ce n'est pas si alarmant, c'est complètement différent de ce qu'on a vue à date pour une simple et bonne raison, le STHS V2 est la version la plus complète que le monde virtuelle ait connu.

J'ai fait plusieurs tests avec mes cotes et rare sont les grosses équipes, expérimentés et avec du leadership, qui rate les séries. Moi je n'ai pas de problème à voir la pire équipe de la ligue gagner 5-2 contre la meilleure.

Selon moi le problème est vraiment au niveau des cotes... cependant, il demeure iréaliste qu'un joueur de 99 performe moins bien qu'un joueur de 70... même si mes plus basses cotes PRO sont à 45 ou 40, et encore plus bas dans les mineures.

un joueur de 99 comme Ovechkin qui joue avec des joueurs le moindrement solide en attaque devrait facilement dominer ou au moins être dans le top5 de la ligue à toutes les saisons sauf en cas de blessure, et ce même si la moyennne en SC dans le PRO de tous les attaquants est de 68 mettons...

Ce genre de bug n'est vraiment pas réel et tangible dans les mineurs. Dans les mineurs, un joueur de 65 SC domine largement la colonne des pointeurs avec une moyenne en SC de p-e 40-45..

c'est mon point de vue après avoir fait plusieurs tests... Vous dites que les cotes sont de 1 à 99... je peux ben croire, mais le but quand on fait des cotes ce n'est pas que le meillreur joueur aille 70 en attaque maximum parce que le simulateur est pas capable de gérer des super vedette dans le 99.
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by ynohtna »

man the translation tools really butchered the last two responses

But if sly complain that his GM complain cause they don't don't understand the simulator and why their team are not having good results well it's all subjective and I really hope the sim is not re-developed based on that.

If foo is talking about accuracy of individual attributes in relation to everything then I agree, this should be looked at to ensure the proper differences of 1-99 are clear. The weightings of the attributes and how the affect each other may need to be evaluated and looked at.

Arguments such as my team A is better than team B so team A should win all the time is too tough to prove qualitatively (unless it's really tightly controlled experiment in sim behaviour such as exact teams with % increase in better attributes)

btw... while I appreciate that the developer is french, it's really hard to follow, search, contribute to these discussions when it's in french....
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sly
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by sly »

Ok but i still not understand why a good team whit good players as line #1 Ovechkin,stamkov,getzlaf #2 Pavelski,Roy,Horton and verry good defense and a super goalie like Howard 87 ov did not win regulary and why a goalie like Varlamov 81 ov is better than howard 87 ov...

And a lot of good team look not good in the standing and why a team whit no superstars is in better place standing

sorry for my poor english speaking but i hope you understand what i mean .

My league is 22 team and my last year finalist is now in last position why? whit player like Datsyuk,Kopitar,Neal,Lecavalier,M.Koivu ,Keith,Gonchar and Quik 87 ov Niemi 83 any players in the top 20
So some DG is about to quit the league because they dont understand what is going on whit there team
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sly
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by sly »

Donc Simon juste une question j'imagine quil nest pas possible en cours de saison de passé de la version 2 du simulateur pour retourner avec la version 1 sans que ca fuck toute la saison en court?
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by starfrit »

I got again another message about that in my league, GM that don't understand that against the same team, same settings, one game, he's crushing his opponent, the other game, et gets crushed. That's the real problem because GM' s can't figure out what to do to win. Even if you find a good strategy after 2-3 games, it won't work for the rest of the season, and you have to do it all over again.

I know it must be frustrating to be the better team in the league, ant to often lose th an average team wich gets auto lines and default strategies...
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by ynohtna »

sly wrote:sorry for my poor english speaking but i hope you understand what i mean .
Sly, your reply was fine and I appreciate the effort :)

I don't know what to say about your results. I do know that that my last year V1 winner is struggling in V2 and so is the last year #2 team in the cup finals. I don't know if it's possible to compare the new season to last season because the teams did go through some change with free agency and also the ratings update. Some bad teams from last year are performing well this year and some middle teams are still middle teams.

Ignoring that, so far in my league poor teams are being consistently beaten. But what constitutes poor? In my league, the poor teams seem to be the one who don't manage their rosters and line ups well... also they may have big name players but all the attributes for the whole team are kind of a miss match. I've also seen back to back games where team A wins 6-1, and nobody changes anything the next game but team A still win but like 5-4 (OT)

I've had teams improve after understanding better what they should look for in attributes and better balance of lines.

I've been testing on one team putting the top line players on the 3rd line and 3rd line players on the 1st line. This actually helped this specific team as it seems it gave the top line players more energy or freedom or something to score! The 3rd line on top line doesn't seem to score any more.... something I was looking for since it's been said that it doesn't matter what the ratings are but that top line players will always score tons of goals.
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by ynohtna »

starfrit wrote: Even if you find a good strategy after 2-3 games, it won't work for the rest of the season, and you have to do it all over again.
Actually that's one thing I'm starting to notice slightly. Seems like sometimes strategies have a best before date! :) however, I felt the same way in V1.....
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Re: Version 2.... réaliste ou pas.

Post by ArkanSeb »

we moved to V2 this season

look at my team: http://www.lhspjc.simnhl.com/pro_roster.php?team=6
1st place in the West
last year I had a slightly better offense with D.Sedin and Eriksson and I missed the playoffs
this year I have an AHL team and I dominate the league

now look at my other team: http://www.lnhs.inter-systeme.ca/pro_roster.php?team=3
I'm almost last in the standings and the 2nd or 3rd worse offence in the league
I always made the playoffs easily with that kind of team for 6 years
and this year I really have no clue if I'm gonna make it

it proves that there's really something wrong with V2 I think
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