Give aways, Take aways

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Foo
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Give aways, Take aways

Post by Foo »

I don't know how it works (how it's calculated) in the sim engine, but it did not reflect NHL reality.

1) The giveaways / takeaways ratio for the forwards a way to big for the giveaways. (not enough takeaways, they should takeaway the puck twice the amount they actually do)

http://www.wchlsim.com/leaderswchl.php? ... 1&rookie=0

2) D-men seem to not give the puck away often (in NHL you have 7 D in the top 10 for the giveaways) In the tests I have made, I rarely got 1 D-man in the top 30 for giveaways.

3) Leaders in takeaways are D-men and it should be forwards. No forwards in top 50 in my tests.

http://www.wchlsim.com/leaderswchl.php? ... 1&rookie=0

I think those two stats show how it affect the scoring on D-men and forwards and I propose those corrections:

Forwards should takeaway puck much much more (double the formula of takeaways for forwards) and give the puck the same as current version.
D-men should giveaways the puck much much more and take the puck over a little less often
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QSHL
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by QSHL »

I mentioned exactly the same thing 9 days ago : http://sths.simont.info/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8261
Foo
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by Foo »

First thing first, Simon should tell us how the STHS calculate takeaway and giveaway in a game.
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Foo
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by Foo »

J'ai trouvé ça, peut-être que ça peut aider:

"
The exact definition is as follows:


Takeaways
A takeaway occurs when pressure from the defending team results in a defending player gaining possession of the puck.


Giveaway is a related statistic and is equal to a turnover...like the skater simply loses the puck to the defense. Exact definition:


Giveaways
A giveaway is when a player's own actions result in a loss of puck possession to the opposing team. When a player deliberately shoots the puck into the opponent's end, the play is not counted as a giveaway.


The problem with a lot of hockey statistics is they are not very consistent in how they determine takeaways...giveaways...some team statisticians obviously count this stat far more than others. So some teams will show a lot while others show very few and the only reason why is the statistician judges the events differently. They are not very good stats to judge the effectiveness of a player because they are judged inconsistently. Some stat sites attempt to judge teams statisticians tendencies and adjust the stats accordingly but that seems sort of inaccurate and sort of guess work at that point.



The two statistics are meant to mimic steals/turnovers in basketball.
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QSHL
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by QSHL »

It's been less of a drastic difference over the past few seasons, but indeed, there was a HUGE gap between statisticians to calculate GIVE vs TAKE in NHL arenas. Even for hits and shot blocks, mind you.

Not sure how this can influence Simon's way of handling it.


What I really wonder though : is "giving away" and "taking away" are actual "actions" in the sim, or simple results of another action like "hitting" and "being hit"?
SimonT
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by SimonT »

Sorry if I was very to slow to respond this thread.

In the STHS, there 2 way a Takeaway / Giveaway is count.

1) The players simply get the puck stolen when skating.
2) The players succesfully received a pass but lost the puck quickly after. (75% less often that the first case)

This answer is true for both engine 2.0 and engine 2.1.
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QSHL
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by QSHL »

Does that means that when there's a GIVE, there's a TAKE in the STHS?

Because it's definitely not the case in the NHL. There are much more GIVE than TAKE.

Because to TAKE the puck, you must have done something to gain possession, whereas you GIVE the puck when you lose it, whether someone stole it from you or you simply lost it while trying something.



I'm not sure players get most of their GIVE/TAKE from skating situations. I think it's more related to plays closer to the boards. I may be wrong on that one, it's just a personal feeling. I don't actually check on my CPU while watching a game to see what's GIVE and TAKE accounted for.
SimonT
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by SimonT »

For me, play closer to the boards for me is part of skating.
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QSHL
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by QSHL »

I felt this was more related to strength. You need strength to keep the puck on a play near the board.

That's my personal feeling.


Yet, I'll repeat my question. In STHS, does GIVE = TAKE ? Because in the NHL it does not.
(if there are 700 takes, there are 700 gives).
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by SimonT »

Right now yes, GIVE = TAKE but I'll add another condition where give away will happen without take away happening.
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QSHL
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by QSHL »

SimonT wrote:Right now yes, GIVE = TAKE but I'll add another condition where give away will happen without take away happening.

http://sths.simont.info/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8261

I invite you to consider my comments about GIVE vs TAKE when re-working your formula.

Give leaders : Mostly offensive D-men.

Take leaders : Mostly skilled forwards (with good puckhandling and/or skating).
Foo
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by Foo »

The Skating rating is way to often used in player decision instead of "more logical" ratings. That's a shame it is too much work cause it will fix a lot of things to use the right rating in the right decision for a player... You have so much ratings for a player to use in many possibilities and SK are used 90% of the time...

see that topic for more on this: http://sths.simont.info/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8298
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SimonT
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Re: Give aways, Take aways

Post by SimonT »

The new condition that I had for TakeAway is PH.
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