Only DMen Fight??

[pimpinhockey]

Im using sim engine 1.5 and we have the rare fight which is fine but the only fighting that happen are dmen, no forwards have ever got in a fight? Is this a known issue or is there something I can do to get forwards fighting some?

www.sclhockey.com

[SimonT]

Move to the correct forum. It's not a issue that I'm aware. Are you DMen fighting rating higher than forward?

[36Henry]

Sounds like an issue with the ratings.

[pimpinhockey]

Dmen fight a regular amount, its not the ratings there are forwards in the 80s FG that wont fight and Dmen in the 40's that do fight

[Kramden23]

I kind of have to agree about fights. Last season out of the top 100 fighters from the Individual Leaders page only 17/100 were forwards, and of those 17 there were 7 who had only 1 fight.

Kind of similarly for PIMs, out of the top 100 only 25 were forwards.

Edit:
V2.2.7
Sim engine 1.5
Fights slider 30

[Owen]

I agree with this as well. I'm running 1.5 and Alex Pietrangelo, a guy with one career fight and FGT rating of 35 (lowest in league), led my league in fighting majors this season. In fact, the top 18 pro team fighters this season were all defensemen. Only 6 of the top 38 fighters were forwards at the pro level. On the farm, it was 22 defensemen in the top 30.

This is despite the fact that there are only 22 defensemen rated in the top 103 in fighting. It's not a ratings issue.

[36Henry]

I'm surprised you're still using the 1.5, but I'm not surprised you're having trouble with it.

Perhaps whether or not a player gets involved in a fight depends on more than just the FG rating? Maybe whoever made your ratings need to take such possible relationships into consideration when creating the ratings? Regardless of the actual number for FG, your ratings may be (and seemingly are) poorly constructed. Were the fighting accurately distributed between dmen and forwards in the plethora of test seasons whoever made your ratings should have run? Were any test seasons run at all?

Let's go through some of the numbers brought up in the last few posts:

"Sim engine = 1.5" - outdated and in my opinion far from the best engine, might even go so far as to say a bad engine when you've studied it hard enough. Everyone should be using the 2.1 to get a realistic simulation in all areas of the game. So that's part of the problem right away.

"Fights slider = 30" - if defensemen are fighting more than forwards, where you put the slider is irrelevant as the ratio between Dmen and Forwards will be the same regardless of your slider setting. And that is the definition of a ratings problem.

"A non-fighter led the league in fighting" & "83/100 top fighters are defensemen" - what is normally the difference between defensemen and forwards? And what is characteristic about a defenseman like Alex Pietrangelo? They spend a lot of time on the ice. If Pietrangelo is on the ice for 25-30 minutes a game and Luke Gazdic is out there for 5-8 minutes, both on poorly constructed ratings and both in an outdated and buggy engine, the one who is out there more will have a much greater chance of getting involved in a fight. Again, this points to a ratings problem.

So yes, it's very much a ratings issue. And an issue of your leagues using the wrong engine.

[Kramden23]

"Sim engine = 1.5" - outdated and in my opinion far from the best engine, might even go so far as to say a bad engine when you've studied it hard enough. Everyone should be using the 2.1 to get a realistic simulation in all areas of the game. So that's part of the problem right away

1.5 is probably the most popular engine used by commissioners that actually know what they're doing and don't want production ratings in the 50s to use engine 2.1.

"Fights slider = 30" - if defensemen are fighting more than forwards, where you put the slider is irrelevant as the ratio between Dmen and Forwards will be the same regardless of your slider setting. And that is the definition of a ratings problem.

I know the fight slider has nothing to do with defenseman fighting more than forwards. However since there are several people in here bringing up an issue in the same area while using the same engine, I thought it was somewhat relevant to list my settings.

"A non-fighter led the league in fighting" & "83/100 top fighters are defensemen" - what is normally the difference between defensemen and forwards? And what is characteristic about a defenseman like Alex Pietrangelo? They spend a lot of time on the ice. If Pietrangelo is on the ice for 25-30 minutes a game and Luke Gazdic is out there for 5-8 minutes, both on poorly constructed ratings and both in an outdated and buggy engine, the one who is out there more will have a much greater chance of getting involved in a fight. Again, this points to a ratings problem.

Owen already explained that Alex Pietrangelo has the lowest FG in the ratings and yet led the league in fights. That doesn't seem to be a ratings problem at all. If the player with the lowest SC rating led the league in goals would you say that's a ratings problem as well?

[Owen]

"I'm surprised you're still using the 1.5, but I'm not surprised you're having trouble with it.
...
A non-fighter led the league in fighting" & "83/100 top fighters are defensemen" - what is normally the difference between defensemen and forwards? And what is characteristic about a defenseman like Alex Pietrangelo? They spend a lot of time on the ice. If Pietrangelo is on the ice for 25-30 minutes a game and Luke Gazdic is out there for 5-8 minutes, both on poorly constructed ratings and both in an outdated and buggy engine, the one who is out there more will have a much greater chance of getting involved in a fight. Again, this points to a ratings problem.

So yes, it's very much a ratings issue. And an issue of your leagues using the wrong engine.

What's your point here? First you blame the sim engine. Then you blame the ratings. Which is it? You're counter-arguing yourself.

So Pietrangelo should get rated so low that he doesn't get sufficient playing time? I guess you missed the part about how he has the lowest fighting rating in the league. How much ice time someone gets shouldn't affect how keen they are to get into a fight. Mark Borowiecki has a fight rating 51 points higher (86) and played 22:26 per game this season. He had ZERO fights.

I don't deny that there are external variables that can play a role in this don't be so smug because you don't like a particular sim engine. The problems with 2.0 and 2.1 are well-documented. Anyway, the issue sure seems to be there with specifically with engine 1.5 and defies the logic to ANY ratings pack. If you're still somehow convinced it's a ratings issue, I think we'd all like to see what god-like ratings pack you're using and see if it has the same problem.

[36Henry]

1.5 is probably the most popular engine used by commissioners that actually know what they're doing.

I agree that everyone favors the 1.5 engine. It is my opinion that if they truly knew what they were doing they wouldn't be using the 1.5 because the 2.1 is vastly superior.

and don't want production ratings in the 50s to use engine 2.1.

There is no reason to have production ratings in the 50s to use the 2.1 engine (see links below). That is a myth created by people who, to use your phrase, don't actually know what they're doing. That is why I've made my ratings available to anyone who wants to purchase them and get the best possible simulation using the best engine.

I know the fight slider has nothing to do with defenseman fighting more than forwards. However since there are several people in here bringing up an issue in the same area while using the same engine, I thought it was somewhat relevant to list my settings.

Fair enough. Just wanted to point it out in case people didn't realize.

Owen already explained that Alex Pietrangelo has the lowest FG in the ratings and yet led the league in fights. That doesn't seem to be a ratings problem at all. If the player with the lowest SC rating led the league in goals would you say that's a ratings problem as well?

You missed the part where I stated that perhaps the FG rating alone isn't completely responsible for who fights and when? Or where I asked if this fights distribution issue was observable during the testing phase when the ratings used were built (which would then raise the question of why this problem wasn't caught before the season had started). Are these leagues using the same ratings or different ones? Were the ratings tested at all in advance? There are many unanswered questions.

What's your point here? First you blame the sim engine. Then you blame the ratings. Which is it? You're counter-arguing yourself.

My point here was to offer some insights based on experience with what little information I had to go on from this topic. From what has been posted I would conclude that it looks to be part ratings related and part engine related. These two aren't mutually exclusive. It can be a little from column A and a little from column B.

So Pietrangelo should get rated so low that he doesn't get sufficient playing time? I guess you missed the part about how he has the lowest fighting rating in the league. How much ice time someone gets shouldn't affect how keen they are to get into a fight. Mark Borowiecki has a fight rating 51 points higher (86) and played 22:26 per game this season. He had ZERO fights.

I'm not sure I said Pietrangelo shouldn't be getting ice-time. Quite the opposite, I praised Pietrangelo as a very good defenseman who should be playing 25-30 minutes per game on any team. If you or any other GM feels his ice-time should be cut if his FG-rating gets cut further, that is none of my business.

I also never said that more ice-time makes any player more keen to fight. It's a simple game of chance. If player X is on the ice for half the game, there's a good chance he's on the ice when a fight breaks out, and the guy starting the fight may jump anyone of his opponents in my experience (with a slightly higher chance that he'll jump the more willing opponent but it's far from a guarantee). This means that player X may not be out there starting fights, but because he's on the ice often, he's more likely to get jumped by an opposing player. We don't know based on the stats provided by the Sim who actually initiates the fights. There's also the general fights where anyone on the ice can get drawn into a scuffle, this again increases the chance that a player who plays a lot of minutes will get dragged in.

I do agree it looks odd to have Pietrangelo and Borowiecki perform like this. But I don't know enough about their ratings and the league ratings to make any kind of intelligent analysis of your specific case. I can only draw on my experience in dealing with the simulation engines.

I don't deny that there are external variables that can play a role in this don't be so smug because you don't like a particular sim engine. The problems with 2.0 and 2.1 are well-documented. Anyway, the issue sure seems to be there with specifically with engine 1.5 and defies the logic to ANY ratings pack. If you're still somehow convinced it's a ratings issue, I think we'd all like to see what god-like ratings pack you're using and see if it has the same problem.

The "problems" with the newer engines are based on ignorance. None of those problems actually exists if the engines are used correctly (see links below). The newer engines are vastly superior. I'm not sure it's being smug to state a provable fact.

You state this problem exists with ANY ratings pack. Have you replicated this issue with EVERY 1.5 ratings pack out there? How is it that the 1.5 has been used for so many years by so many leagues and this problem didn't appear until now? Unless Simon changed something in the 1.5 simulation engine recently (which he may have, I genuinely don't know), I would suspect that it is more likely that the ratings are causing this, based on the many years of service from the 1.5 engine. And yes, I guess that was me defending 1.5 a little

Previews of my ratings pack are available here: http://sths.simont.info/Forum/viewtopic ... 11&t=12049

I also made a few posts last year about my ratings for the 2.1 engine here: http://sths.simont.info/Forum/viewtopic ... 938#p47938 and here http://sths.simont.info/Forum/viewtopic ... 254#p46254

Since my ratings are developed for the 2.1 engine, running them on the 1.5 would be pointless. But you'll be glad to know that there are no problems with fighting when running games on the 2.1. In five simulated seasons with the finished ratings Pietrangelo didn't have a single fighting major.

Now I ask these questions again: were these problems with defensemen fighting more than forwards observable when you or whoever created your ratings were testing them? Were the ratings tested at all?

[SimonT]

P.S. I never change anything in the simulation engine.

[JimToupet]

P.S. I never change anything in the simulation engine.

Pif, paf, pouf!

Now that the engine stuff have been ruled out, can we have an idea of which ratings are considered. I can agree that ratings have to do with that situation but maybe that just focusing on Fight rating it's not enough.

[SimonT]

Well, I never change anything in the simulation except for major bug and maybe this one can fell into the major category. It’s seem I’m not checking the FG rating to decided who fight but the DF rating for engine 1.1 and 1.5. Do you want me to fix it even if it changes the “game integrity”? More answer, more I’ll do it.

[JimToupet]

If this can be changed, I think it should.

We all can leave with some "irregular" results but having to modify DF rating to resolve fighting issue can more change "game integrity" then less, in my opinion.

[36Henry]

Why not just encourage people to migrate over to the much better 2.1?